Llewellyn...ditemi un po'

[Dazza]

Well, basically I agree with your approach in terms of philosophy.

But I have some remarks: if I have a steel frame of 1450g, like my frame for example, and you add 500g to the bike as an external pack, like you did in Livigno, this is not the same situation of having a frame of 1950g, this is sure.

The behaviour of the bike is mainly driven by the frame, not by the bike entirely, so if you have 1500g of frame and you add 300g (plus 20% of the frame wheight) you would really have big differences, both climbing and descending at high speed, because they are completely different frames.

The weight of 300g globally distributed on the frame implies enough to change your feeling with your bike.

Probably if you have 300g of difference between two frames, they are built with different tube series, as well.

Do you agree my remarks or am I overlooking some other aspects?


Tnx Dazza for your time, I'm really enjoining.

If we put 300 grams of material in the frame
that extra material will change the way the frame feels.
for example if I make one frame with .7 /.5/.7 mm tubes
and the same frame geometery and dimensions with tubes .8/.5/.8
then yes the frames will feel different to the rider
It is the extra material, not the extra weight that changes the feeling that the rider is feeling in the frame.
The extra material mass used correctly such as in the frame tubes is a good thing.

The extra weight (Mass) in theory will have effects when changing velocity or working against gravity. In real tests it is never possible to reproduce as the rider's power fluctuates in the tests. And even with SRM measuring data (I was fitting and maintaining the SRM equipment at the Australian Institute of Sport) we can not find the weight against power inputs measurable. In theory it must be there.
With a 75 kg rider and 7kg bicycle = 83 kg then .3kg is not much.
On one climb the rider may perspire .5 to 1.5 kg of water
then air temperature has effects on drag when testing
oh it goes on and on all the problems of detecting 300 grams when riding.
On a calculator it is possible
Out side when riding up a mountains science cannot measure as there is so many influences to the measurements. The rider may feel there is a difference, but actual velocity changes is not able to be detected against the input of power. (unless the extra weight approaches 3 to 5kgs, then it shows in the data measurements)


Hookes's law of Springs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke's_law[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke%27s_law[/URL]
The same energy is stored in the strain (flex) of the stiff frame tube
as
in the strain (flex) of less stiff tube.

That energy still goes back into the chain as the frame tube returns to normal when the pulse of the pedal stroke reduces at 12 o'clock-6 0.clock

Some say that a flexible frame feels better to pedal on because of this.
I am not sure of this. I like the bike to track smoothly and with out wiggle.

I believe that very flexible frames behave badly when climbing and descending hard in rough corners. (also the fork is very important )
The extra 300 grams is better for performance.
The beautiful part of bespoke custom bicycles, in any material is that a good skilled and careful builder will take appreciation of the rider's circumstances and build a bike to meet the criteria.

There is a limit.
A frame as stiff as Granite is not going to be faster.

Prodotti bici scontati

 

[sante pollastri]

And a good driver, to be really good, as well as the weight to be?
Whatever you say Sante, we notice that under your theory I will be a very good driver.

questo in base alla mia esperienza,per carità.
però ti dico che bisogna provare,non ci si può fossilizzare su di una sola bici,anche se questa la si reputa la migliore,ma migliore rispetto a quali altre?
io dico che,oltre a divertirti,potresti anche rivedere alcune tue certezze.

 

[loscaligerocancellato]

Frequently asked question:

How much cost your frames?

 

[Dazza]

Frequently asked question:

How much cost your frames?

It is all here on the new web site
NEW TODAY
www.llewellynbikes.com
all the links in the pages are underlined and in green
Prices at the bottom of the page
http://www.llewellynbikes.com/HTML/LlewellynBicycles.html

all the links in the pages are underlined and in green

Models are here

Examples as of May 2011
Signature $3,618.00 aud
Lucentezza $8,590.00 aud

My lovely wife created this new website :eek:

 

[Mardot]

If we put 300 grams of material in the frame
that extra material will change the way the frame feels.
for example if I make one frame with .7 /.5/.7 mm tubes
and the same frame geometery and dimensions with tubes .8/.5/.8
then yes the frames will feel different to the rider
It is the extra material, not the extra weight that changes the feeling that the rider is feeling in the frame.
The extra material mass used correctly such as in the frame tubes is a good thing.

The extra weight (Mass) in theory will have effects when changing velocity or working against gravity. In real tests it is never possible to reproduce as the rider's power fluctuates in the tests. And even with SRM measuring data (I was fitting and maintaining the SRM equipment at the Australian Institute of Sport) we can not find the weight against power inputs measurable. In theory it must be there.
With a 75 kg rider and 7kg bicycle = 83 kg then .3kg is not much.
On one climb the rider may perspire .5 to 1.5 kg of water
then air temperature has effects on drag when testing
oh it goes on and on all the problems of detecting 300 grams when riding.
On a calculator it is possible
Out side when riding up a mountains science cannot measure as there is so many influences to the measurements. The rider may feel there is a difference, but actual velocity changes is not able to be detected against the input of power. (unless the extra weight approaches 3 to 5kgs, then it shows in the data measurements)


Hookes's law of Springs
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke%27s_law"][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke%27s_law"][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke%27s_law"][url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke%27s_law[/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]
The same energy is stored in the strain (flex) of the stiff frame tube
as
in the strain (flex) of less stiff tube.

That energy still goes back into the chain as the frame tube returns to normal when the pulse of the pedal stroke reduces at 12 o'clock-6 0.clock

Some say that a flexible frame feels better to pedal on because of this.
I am not sure of this. I like the bike to track smoothly and with out wiggle.

I believe that very flexible frames behave badly when climbing and descending hard in rough corners. (also the fork is very important )
The extra 300 grams is better for performance.
The beautiful part of bespoke custom bicycles, in any material is that a good skilled and careful builder will take appreciation of the rider's circumstances and build a bike to meet the criteria.

There is a limit.
A frame as stiff as Granite is not going to be faster.

Thank you

very much, Dazza.
​

 

[ciofecca gialloblù]

questo in base alla mia esperienza,per carità.
però ti dico che bisogna provare,non ci si può fossilizzare su di una sola bici,anche se questa la si reputa la migliore,ma migliore rispetto a quali altre?
io dico che,oltre a divertirti,potresti anche rivedere alcune tue certezze.

Ah Sante....era una battuta pour parler ...non volevo criticare la tua affermazione, se avessi voluto farlo sarei stato più diretto :rosik:.
Sul fatto di provare più bici e di non fossilizzarsi su una sola ti do ragione , nel mio piccolo l'ho fatto e continuerò a farlo (quando mi si crea l'opportunità di provare un'altra bici, ad esempio quella di un amico), però ti dico, con sincerità, che finora ritengo che la mia bici sia stata la scelta migliore, non dico in assoluto, ma per me, detto cioè in altri termini sono ultrasoddisfatto della scelta che ho fatto e la rifarei.

 

[pcarp]

Hi Dazza,
can you tell us about yours experiences with Australians' national teams? How do you work with riders who use (only????) carbon frames? What do you think about carbon? Have you ever used it? Why do you think steel is better?
Thanks and sorry for asking too many questions about your job.....but know better you it's a great opportunity for us.
Ciao
Paolo

 

[Dazza]

Hi Dazza,
can you tell us about yours experiences with Australians' national teams? How do you work with riders who use (only????) carbon frames? What do you think about carbon? Have you ever used it? Why do you think steel is better?
Thanks and sorry for asking too many questions about your job.....but know better you it's a great opportunity for us.
Ciao
Paolo

My work with the Aussie team started at the end of 1994 when I stopped racing my last season in France.
I worked with the national road team and traveled and lived with the team for 6-8 months each year in Europe. I also lived in Canberra at the Australian Institute of Sport where I become involved with the Biomechanics department and work with the physiologists assisting with SRM work at training camps and at races. I have washed bicycles in 23 countries. Worked two Olympic games, six world Champs, etc. I did some small amounts of work with the track team. But it was 99% road.
I stopped most of the work at the end of 2000 because I wanted to stay home and make bikes. I some times do trips such as three months in 2009 with the U23 team and the Champs at Mendrisio.
Stories, I could type for hours but..............

Carbon can be made into a nice frame if done properly
http://www.crumptoncycles.com/

but most of the carbon is made cheaply, and too fragile. Team mechanics have a terrible time now with carbon frames being damaged in simple crashes. Too fragile because of the weight paranoia to sell.
1. Small numbers of grams to quote on the brochure
2. Flash large bold grapics
3. Some advertising spiel about technology making you go faster
4. Low cost to manufacture (via China) and large markups
and $ space to allow for many warranty returns.

Any frame will hold two wheels and roll down the road. The quality of alignments and construction methods is being driven down to make very cheap carbon frames, the retail cost is not low, but manufacturing standards is very low. $700 to buy from the factory and you sell them at $3,500aud
The sad thing is the Italian brands from yesterday have gone this way as well to make sales volume. Then they pretend they are craftsman which was never really true. The insert name (example Ernesto C etc) wore the tie and the workers did the job on the factory floor with only a few of them truly having any skills. Most were blue collar labour. Making frames was a job, not a life style or a means of self expression.

Carbon, Titanium, aluminium, steel, all materials can be made into an excellent frame if the primary direction is doing the best frame practical to make. Not the cheapest.
I think steel with it's very high fatigue resistance, high strength and reliable joining methods allows one to make the most practical nice riding frames. Not the lightest, but for 99% of us, the weight is not as issue till our legs look like Sean Kelly's .
Steel construction allow the builder to truly express craftmanship into the frame, via the lugs and other details which I like and my client's appreciate. The bike is more than a pop up toaster to my client's, it is a passion and a passion to ride.

I believe one is not a better frame builder because you can offer any thing for any one.
Colnago made steel, titanium, alloy and carbon frames so no matter what itch the consumer has , they can scratch the itch. Very well marketed frames.
It is to fill the market. They are chained to sales volume.

The independent builder has more freedom to do what they need to do

‘A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write, if he is to become ultimately happy. What a man can be, he must be. This need we may call self-actualization … It refers to the desire for self fulfilment, namely the potential for him to become actualized in what he is potentially … the desire to become more and more what one is, to become everything that one is capable of becoming.’
Maslow 1943



It is better one concentrates the direction in a chosen path.
For me it is steel.
I do not need to make frames in other materials.


“There is a reason to build a frame a certain shape, not just a question to follow the market-not just for money. I think it is stupid just to follow the market…
It is more fun to make the market’
It is really hard of course”

"Marketing cannot invent Passion"
Dario Pegoretti


My T shirt is

It is steel
It is lugs
let the others get on with the madness
You know I am right!
Darrell McCulloch

 

[sante pollastri]

My work with the Aussie team started at the end of 1994 when I stopped racing my last season in France.
I worked with the national road team and traveled and lived with the team for 6-8 months each year in Europe. I also lived in Canberra at the Australian Institute of Sport where I become involved with the Biomechanics department and work with the physiologists assisting with SRM work at training camps and at races. I have washed bicycles in 23 countries. Worked two Olympic games, six world Champs, etc. I did some small amounts of work with the track team. But it was 99% road.
I stopped most of the work at the end of 2000 because I wanted to stay home and make bikes. I some times do trips such as three months in 2009 with the U23 team and the Champs at Mendrisio.
Stories, I could type for hours but..............

Carbon can be made into a nice frame if done properly
http://www.crumptoncycles.com/

but most of the carbon is made cheaply, and too fragile. Team mechanics have a terrible time now with carbon frames being damaged in simple crashes. Too fragile because of the weight paranoia to sell.
1. Small numbers of grams to quote on the brochure
2. Flash large bold grapics
3. Some advertising spiel about technology making you go faster
4. Low cost to manufacture (via China) and large markups
and $ space to allow for many warranty returns.

Any frame will hold two wheels and roll down the road. The quality of alignments and construction methods is being driven down to make very cheap carbon frames, the retail cost is not low, but manufacturing standards is very low. $700 to buy from the factory and you sell them at $3,500aud
The sad thing is the Italian brands from yesterday have gone this way as well to make sales volume. Then they pretend they are craftsman which was never really true. The insert name (example Ernesto C etc) wore the tie and the workers did the job on the factory floor with only a few of them truly having any skills. Most were blue collar labour. Making frames was a job, not a life style or a means of self expression.

Carbon, Titanium, aluminium, steel, all materials can be made into an excellent frame if the primary direction is doing the best frame practical to make. Not the cheapest.
I think steel with it's very high fatigue resistance, high strength and reliable joining methods allows one to make the most practical nice riding frames. Not the lightest, but for 99% of us, the weight is not as issue till our legs look like Sean Kelly's .
Steel construction allow the builder to truly express craftmanship into the frame, via the lugs and other details which I like and my client's appreciate. The bike is more than a pop up toaster to my client's, it is a passion and a passion to ride.

I believe one is not a better frame builder because you can offer any thing for any one.
Colnago made steel, titanium, alloy and carbon frames so no matter what itch the consumer has , they can scratch the itch. Very well marketed frames.
It is to fill the market. They are chained to sales volume. The independent builder has more freedom to do what they need to do

It is better one concentrates the direction in a chosen path.
For me it is steel.
I do not need to make frames in other materials.

My T shirt is

It is steel
It is lugs
let the others get on with the madness
You know I am right!

master,c59 and epq are made in cambiago.
colnago is an industry,but it doesn't mean that the quality is no good.
craftamanship=quality?

 

[ciofecca gialloblù]

My work with the Aussie team started at the end of 1994 when I stopped racing my last season in France.
I worked with the national road team and traveled and lived with the team for 6-8 months each year in Europe. I also lived in Canberra at the Australian Institute of Sport where I become involved with the Biomechanics department and work with the physiologists assisting with SRM work at training camps and at races. I have washed bicycles in 23 countries. Worked two Olympic games, six world Champs, etc. I did some small amounts of work with the track team. But it was 99% road.
I stopped most of the work at the end of 2000 because I wanted to stay home and make bikes. I some times do trips such as three months in 2009 with the U23 team and the Champs at Mendrisio.
Stories, I could type for hours but..............

Carbon can be made into a nice frame if done properly
[url]http://www.crumptoncycles.com/[/URL]

but most of the carbon is made cheaply, and too fragile. Team mechanics have a terrible time now with carbon frames being damaged in simple crashes. Too fragile because of the weight paranoia to sell.
1. Small numbers of grams to quote on the brochure
2. Flash large bold grapics
3. Some advertising spiel about technology making you go faster
4. Low cost to manufacture (via China) and large markups
and $ space to allow for many warranty returns.

Any frame will hold two wheels and roll down the road. The quality of alignments and construction methods is being driven down to make very cheap carbon frames, the retail cost is not low, but manufacturing standards is very low. $700 to buy from the factory and you sell them at $3,500aud
The sad thing is the Italian brands from yesterday have gone this way as well to make sales volume. Then they pretend they are craftsman which was never really true. The insert name (example Ernesto C etc) wore the tie and the workers did the job on the factory floor with only a few of them truly having any skills. Most were blue collar labour. Making frames was a job, not a life style or a means of self expression.

Carbon, Titanium, aluminium, steel, all materials can be made into an excellent frame if the primary direction is doing the best frame practical to make. Not the cheapest.
I think steel with it's very high fatigue resistance, high strength and reliable joining methods allows one to make the most practical nice riding frames. Not the lightest, but for 99% of us, the weight is not as issue till our legs look like Sean Kelly's .
Steel construction allow the builder to truly express craftmanship into the frame, via the lugs and other details which I like and my client's appreciate. The bike is more than a pop up toaster to my client's, it is a passion and a passion to ride.

I believe one is not a better frame builder because you can offer any thing for any one.
Colnago made steel, titanium, alloy and carbon frames so no matter what itch the consumer has , they can scratch the itch. Very well marketed frames.
It is to fill the market. They are chained to sales volume.

The independent builder has more freedom to do what they need to do

‘A musician must make music, an artist must paint, a poet must write, if he is to become ultimately happy. What a man can be, he must be. This need we may call self-actualization … It refers to the desire for self fulfilment, namely the potential for him to become actualized in what he is potentially … the desire to become more and more what one is, to become everything that one is capable of becoming.’
Maslow 1943



It is better one concentrates the direction in a chosen path.
For me it is steel.
I do not need to make frames in other materials.


“There is a reason to build a frame a certain shape, not just a question to follow the market-not just for money. I think it is stupid just to follow the market…
It is more fun to make the market’
It is really hard of course”

"Marketing cannot invent Passion"
Dario Pegoretti


My T shirt is

It is steel
It is lugs
let the others get on with the madness
You know I am right!
Darrell McCulloch

I think Darrell will prove a great intellectual honesty and professional when he says that a good frame can be realized in any material (steel, aluminum, carbon or titanium) and that the real difference is the degree of knowledge that the frame builder can establish with material chosen, the rest is done by the care and dedication with which each craftsman or manufacturer carries out its work.
I think Darrell's mission is clear: to achieve a high quality product but also long-lasting performance, this is a species of white fly, because the big producers have no interest in bringing models extremely durable, it would come in conflict with themselves , even more specifically with their marketing departments that do their best to convince us to change the frame every 2 years, because the latest discovery in the field of nanofibers made a "cesso (water)" as a product until a few months earlier.
A praise to Darrell who has the courage and determination to pursue a different approach from that proposed by the major manufacturers that actually hold almost the entire market.
Darrell has been able to create a niche market, has characterized the matter with contents, aided in this by the fact of believing in one's work, I think you deserve the best of luck, even in terms of sales.
Thanks Darrell.

 

[aotearoa]

And of health! Amen.

 

[ciofecca gialloblù]

“There is a reason to build a frame a certain shape, not just a question to follow the market-not just for money. I think it is stupid just to follow the market…
It is more fun to make the market’
It is really hard of course”

"Marketing cannot invent Passion"
Dario Pegoretti

It is steel
It is lugs
let the others get on with the madness
You know I am right!
Darrell McCulloch


Sorry, but those words spoken not from fans like us, but by professionals (people who earn their bread with the fruit of their work) who build a company on these tenets, I arouse much admiration, a little 'emotion and not least, a bit 'of "goose bumps".

 

[ciofecca gialloblù]

And of health! Amen.

Non l'ho capita giuro....

 

[sante pollastri]

scusate,ma non è quantomeno scorretto parlare in questi termini di Colnago?
ma piu' in generale,per parlare bene di se stessi,è necessario parlare male di qualcun'altro?
non credo ci sia bisogno di illustrare come Colnago stia al carbonio come il carbonio stia a Colnago,o no?

 

[aotearoa]

E' che mi sembrava una di quelle prediche di quei pastori protestanti con tanti di cori gospel. NDP[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eWdDJWesKI]YouTube - Evil Media by James Brown[/URL]

 

[ciofecca gialloblù]

scusate,ma non è quantomeno scorretto parlare in questi termini di Colnago?
ma piu' in generale,per parlare bene di se stessi,è necessario parlare male di qualcun'altro?
non credo ci sia bisogno di illustrare come Colnago stia al carbonio come il carbonio stia a Colnago,o no?

Sante non voglio fare l'avvocato del diavolo, cerco solo di leggere tra le righe.
Credo che Darrell non volesse parlare male di Colnago, ma volesse semplicemente contrapporre due modi diversi di proporsi come costruttore di bici: da una parte il modello da lui rappresentato, che è quello dell'artigiano, dall'altro quello indistriale, rappresentato nella fattispecie da Colnago.
L'esempio da lui illustrato, quello del telaio in carbonio prodotto in Cina (su specifiche Colnago, ok) al costo di poche centinaia di euro e rivenduto poi rimarchiato col nome altisonante 10 volte tanto è una triste realtà, per lo più inconfutabile..
Ma questo non fa dei teli Colnago dei cattivi prodotti, ci mancherebbe, se così fosse ci sarebbe una miriade di consumatori (ciclisti) fessi, li rende semplicemente diversi rispetto ad un telaio artigianale prodotto da Darrell, Dario o Tiziano Zullo.

 

[aotearoa]

Sante non voglio fare l'avvocato del diavolo, cerco solo di leggere tra le righe.
Credo che Darrell non volesse parlare male di Colnago, ma volesse semplicemente contrapporre due modi diversi di proporsi come costruttore di bici: da una parte il modello da lui rappresentato, che è quello dell'artigiano, dall'altro quello indistriale, rappresentato nella fattispecie da Colnago.
L'esempio da lui illustrato, quello del telaio in carbonio prodotto in Cina (su specifiche Colnago, ok) al costo di poche centinaia di euro e rivenduto poi rimarchiato col nome altisonante 10 volte tanto è una triste realtà, per lo più inconfutabile..
Ma questo non fa dei teli Colnago dei cattivi prodotti, ci mancherebbe, se così fosse ci sarebbe una miriade di consumatori (ciclisti) fessi, li rende semplicemente diversi rispetto ad un telaio artigianale prodotto da Darrell, Dario o Tiziano Zullo.

Nemmeno io voglio fare l'avvocato del diavolo, ma è andato a beccare uno dei pochi che l'alta gamma la fa ancora, seppur con numeri industriali, con cura e perizia artigianale in Italia.

 

[ciofecca gialloblù]

scusate,ma non è quantomeno scorretto parlare in questi termini di Colnago?
ma piu' in generale,per parlare bene di se stessi,è necessario parlare male di qualcun'altro?
non credo ci sia bisogno di illustrare come Colnago stia al carbonio come il carbonio stia a Colnago,o no?

In english for Darrell:

Sante do not want to do the devil's advocate, I just try to read between the lines.
I think Darrell would not speak ill of Colnago, but simply wanted to contrast two different ways to present itself as a manufacturer of bicycle: on the one hand he represents the model, which is the craftsman, the other industry, in this case represented by Colnago.
The example he shows, that the carbon frame made ​​in China (on specific Colnago, ok) to the cost of a few hundred euro and then sold rebranded with the fancy name 10 times as much is a sad reality, for the most conclusive ..
But this does not make bad products of the cloths Colnago, God forbid, if it did there would be a myriad of consumer (cyclists) fools, just makes them different than a traditional frame manufactured by Darrell, Dario or Zullo Tiziano.
If I misread your thought Darrell, smentiscimi well, no problem.

 

[sante pollastri]

Sante non voglio fare l'avvocato del diavolo, cerco solo di leggere tra le righe.
Credo che Darrell non volesse parlare male di Colnago, ma volesse semplicemente contrapporre due modi diversi di proporsi come costruttore di bici: da una parte il modello da lui rappresentato, che è quello dell'artigiano, dall'altro quello indistriale, rappresentato nella fattispecie da Colnago.
L'esempio da lui illustrato, quello del telaio in carbonio prodotto in Cina (su specifiche Colnago, ok) al costo di poche centinaia di euro e rivenduto poi rimarchiato col nome altisonante 10 volte tanto è una triste realtà, per lo più inconfutabile..
Ma questo non fa dei teli Colnago dei cattivi prodotti, ci mancherebbe, se così fosse ci sarebbe una miriade di consumatori (ciclisti) fessi, li rende semplicemente diversi rispetto ad un telaio artigianale prodotto da Darrell, Dario o Tiziano Zullo.

ho capito,ma qui passa il concetto che Colnago lavora solo così,ma così non è.
mi preme riaffermare che c59 ed epq sono realizzati in italia e non commissionati in altri continenti.
il telaio da lui citato,invece,non è che sia il massimo,basta solo sapere che c'è il bb30 e l'isp,sarà pure artigianale,ma con un'occhio al "market"....

 

[ciofecca gialloblù]

Nemmeno io voglio fare l'avvocato del diavolo, ma è andato a beccare uno dei pochi che l'alta gamma la fa ancora, seppur con numeri industriali, con cura e perizia artigianale in Italia.

Ho tentato di tradurre quanto ho scritto, lasciamogli la possibilità si spiegarsi meglio, poi trarremo le dovute conclusioni del caso.