Training and Racing with a Power Meter (parte seconda)
- Creatore Discussione samuelgol
- Data di inizio
- Watchers 77
- Stato
Ma se non fai test specifici come fai a basarti sulle varie zone potenza?
quando ti alleni in Z4 cosa fai: monti in bici e ti fai 1h in z4 + o - tirata.... risultato hai un CP60..... se ti alleni in salita fai salite a SSP-Z4 di 1h e passa risultato hai un CP60 anche se non è un'ora a tutta (e i miei CP60 hanno sicuramente un margine discreto attorno ai 20w sicuri) resta un valido indicatore anzi paradossalmente anche + che se fosse 1h ora alla morte.....lo stesso dicasi per CP30.....non mi sembra complicato
il test lo faccio su CP20 e da lì desumo le zone (per me funziona bene e mi da ottima coerenza nel ricavare le zone di allenamento)
il test lo faccio su CP20 e da lì desumo le zone (per me funziona bene e mi da ottima coerenza nel ricavare le zone di allenamento)
Si quello che dici e' ok ma io sui 60' di solito non e' che vado mai a tutta,anche ieri ho fatto una salita da 20' in ssp ma non e' la stessa cosa che fare 20' al gancio.
si va "a tutta" in relazione alla lunghezza dell'intervallo
60' a SSP dovresti farli abbastanza tranquillamente.... certo che se non ti alleni a quelle intensità x durata di tempo farai fatica
Non ho salite per quel tipo di tempo arrivo ad un max di 20' salite quindi lavoro su intervalli di 20'..
I 60' si li faccio in pianura ma il divario fra pianura e salita e' molto grosso e non posso tenere in considerazione le zone in base al test di 60' in pianure.
mah non sono tanto convinto personalmente non rilevo grossi problemi di sostenibilità a partità di potenza tra salita e pianura.... mardok devi capire che non si inventa niente devi essere specifico negli allenamenti
mah non sono tanto convinto personalmente non rilevo grossi problemi di sostenibilità a partità di potenza tra salita e pianura.... mardok devi capire che non si inventa niente devi essere specifico negli allenamenti
Test sui 20' 273 watt medi
Sui 60' il mio best e' 208 watt medi..
Manco se voglio tengo 273 watt medi in pianura,quindi secondo me bisogna avere 2 soglie per le 2 modalita' differenti...
Quindi direi che e' impossibile tenere buono il dato sui 60' come metodo di zone di allenamento.
Ma mi e' venuto un dubbio devo tenere conto delle potenze medie oppure di quelle normalizzate??
Sono d'accordo , giovedì sera ho provato una sessione Hop tutta in pianura , fatta tenendo Z4 bassa 5' con scatto da 11'' ogni lap . Venuta h.1.02 con pot. media poco meno ftp
non per contraddirti ma per suscitare altri pareri:
(1) io che cmq di tanto in tanto faccio qualche test ritengo l'andamento CP irrilevante perchè il best resterà sempre quello del test anche in condizione migliorata.
(2) io ho provato a fare qualche ripetuta in SST in discesa e "non è proprio cosa" come si dice dalle mie parti, per non parlare di intensità più elevate; l'esempio per esagerare la differenza tra salita e pianura, che comunque, anche secondo me c'è. Infatti pur avendo migliorato qualche best su salita ripida 20'-35' non ho ancora ritoccato ftp in attesa di test sulla solita strada pianura-falsopiano-salita
Io li ritengo 2 test diversi.
Ftp su pianura lo si usa in pianura
Ftp su salita lo si usa in salita.
Io ho un divario pauroso fra pianura e salita,il mio fisico non mi aiuta di certo per la pianura.
guarda ci avevo pensato anche io ma lo trovo di difficile applicazione, anche perchè (nel mio caso) il divario si accentua in salita >10%, quindi credo che finirò per variare la %ftp a seconda degli esercizi da svolgere lasciando quindi fissa ftp
La mia potenza normalizzata su 60' e di 230watt--il test di 20gg fa in salita sui 20' e' 273watt medi.
Se dovessi applicare la ftp dei 60' praticamente non concluderei nulla.
Quindi visto che io in pianura non ho nessuna dote e fatico molto perche' non e' il mio terreno tengo cmq una potenza che mi permette di destreggiarmi bene...
Tengo buona la potenza del test sui 20' circa perche' faccio molte medie non uso solo il dato di 1 test.
Per quello che mi riguarda la differenza fra pianura e salita, se parliamo di sviluppo di potenza, c'è eccome, 1h in salita in sst me la faccio come ridere, in pianura sputo sangue. Ma certo è che non siamo tutti uguali.
Aggiungo che a me capita spesso, invece, di farmi salite di 1h a tutta, visto che sono quelle che preferisco, lunghe. Solo così ho un vero riscontro del andamento della FTP durante la stagione, anche se sappiamo ormai tutti, che non è solo questo a dirci se siamo migliorati o meno, và sempre tutto contestualizzato agli obbiettivi e alle gare che si affrontano. Poi per stilare le zone di potenza, ormai, uso altri parametri.
Per le gare che faccio io, in mtb, la FTP è forse il valore meno importante, è anche quello dove sono migliorato meno, a favore delle zone di potenze che contano realmente, Z6 e Z7 e della capacità di ripeterle in tempi il più breve possibili.
Per me da qui a fine stagione solo inteval training, grazie
Aggiungo che a me capita spesso, invece, di farmi salite di 1h a tutta, visto che sono quelle che preferisco, lunghe. Solo così ho un vero riscontro del andamento della FTP durante la stagione, anche se sappiamo ormai tutti, che non è solo questo a dirci se siamo migliorati o meno, và sempre tutto contestualizzato agli obbiettivi e alle gare che si affrontano. Poi per stilare le zone di potenza, ormai, uso altri parametri.
Per le gare che faccio io, in mtb, la FTP è forse il valore meno importante, è anche quello dove sono migliorato meno, a favore delle zone di potenze che contano realmente, Z6 e Z7 e della capacità di ripeterle in tempi il più breve possibili.
Per me da qui a fine stagione solo inteval training, grazie
Il best rimarrà (per definizione) il valore massimo, ma potrebbe essere sensato utilizzare un valore coerente con le effettive capacità (anche in caso di abbassamento degli stessi) per stimare correttamente intensità e carichi di allenamento.
All'inizio dell'utilizzo del misuratore di potenza rilevavo anche io una differenza maggiore rispetto a quanto risulti ora... probabilmente con una maggiore sensibilità nell'utilizzo dello strumento e nella gestione delle risorse disponibili (cadenza e potenza) la differenza tende a diventare meno rilevante (salvo, ad esempio, non avere rapporti adeguati quando si affronti una salita molto ripida, trovandosi a pedalare in condizioni non ottimali). Quindi, trascurando la differente (pianura vs salita) "facilità" di mantenere costante la potenza espressa (di cui si è già discusso), ed ammettendo che si abbiano rapporti adeguati ad ottenere le medesime combinazioni potenza-cadenza, le diverse situazioni (pianura vs salita) dovrebbero essere più o meno (~) analoghe dal punto di vista della combinazione di resistenza al pedale e velocità di esecuzione, almeno come media sulla singola pedalata.
In effetti sono stati condotti studi (se ne parla ad esempio sul testo di Grappe, 2009) in cui si è evidenziata, a parità di potenza espressa e di cadenza adottata, un differente andamento della coppia motrice lungo la circonferenza di pedalata (sempre salita vs pianura: differenze comunque non estreme... e soprattutto non evidenti sulla base delle considerazioni "medie" di cui sopra).
Fra le varie questioni discusse in questo articolo...
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=10252&status=Truehttp://www.pezcyclingnews.com/?pg=fullstory&id=10252&status=True
alla fine si dice:
"Finally, if you are doing 20 min field tests to ascertain your functional threshold power (FTP), you may want to consider doing the testing in terrain that’s going to replicate your main goals and training, as your FTP results will differ depending on whether you are doing the test on a climb or on a flat course"
Effettivamente dal punto di vista fisiologico le due situazioni non sono perfettamente uguali: ad esempio, facendo riferimento al campo di studio dell'autore dell'articolo, non fosse altro per la differente velocità del flusso d'aria legato al moto relativo del mezzo, che asporterà quote di calore differente in pianura vs salita (perchè le velocità sono differenti), condizionando la durata sostenibile come conseguenza della temperatura risultante (l'incremento di temperatura corporea è uno dei fattori che contribuisce al raggungimento delle condizioni di esaurimento).
invece dei soliti dati spesso riferiti a salite, Fiandre+P-R 2011 di Hincapie:
By Hunter Allen
Last fall, I enjoyed great riding and attend quite a few camps with many outstanding athletes and was able to spend some quality time coaching and riding which is always fun! I have more power data than I can analyze, and pretty often I’ll get some super exciting data that I haven’t seen before. This fall, it was George Hincapie’s SRM data from his stellar 2011 season and he had quite the stand-out year. Many of the tactics and strategies that he was able to employ successfully this year are things that each of us can use in our own racing or riding.
One of the camps that I coached at was the CEO Cycling Challenge event in Greenville, South Carolina which is the home to George Hincapie and Hincapie Sportswear. George has been a part of the CEO Cycling Challenge event for some time now and for the attendees it’s a great opportunity for them to spend some time riding with George, asking racing questions and enjoying the excellent cycling in Greenville. At the camp, Quarq power meters were kind enough to supply the CEO’s with demo power meters and we ran the CEO’s through our normal testing protocols of 5 second, 1 minute, 5 minute and 20 minute tests, in order to figure out their FTP and Power Profiles. This was a great way to introduce the CEO’s to power training and also provide some great comparisons to themselves and to “Big George’s” numbers. Everyone was feeling good about their numbers until George was kind enough to share all of his data with us and we all saw just how incredible a rider he continues to be. With the amazing data set at my fingertips, I immediately went straight to his Tour of Flanders file to see how difficult it was to place 6th in an event as hard as Flanders.
The demands of the Tour of Flanders are absolutely astounding and there is no doubt why this is considered one of the hardest one day races in the world. In the 160 mile race, George did 6123 kiloJoules of work which is one of the highest expenditure of kJ’s that I have ever seen. Since 1kJ is roughly equal to 1kCal, then George burned over 6100 calories during the race, which is more than any stage in the Tour de France this year. George’s normalized power for the 6hour race was 342 watts for the ENTIRE race…which most of us can only do for just a few minutes. He created 353 Training Stress Score points in the event which puts it solidly in the “EPIC” category. One of the more interesting things about the race was that George spent the first two and half hours resting, relaxing, sitting in the peloton and taking it as easy as possible and while this is somewhat expected, the clear delineation between this first easier part of the race and the final 3.5 hours is quite obvious. In figure 1, note how his power hovered down in the 200 watt range for most of those 2.5 hours and all of the sudden it was as if a switch was thrown in the peloton and the race started! This race ‘demand’ is characteristic of most pro tour classic races and is something that has to be trained in order for the rider to do well at the end of the event. How can you train to ride easy in the first 1/3 of the race and why would you want to even train for that you ask? Pro-tour riders and elite professionals have become incredibly efficient and economical with their internal body processes and external energy output. One of these is the ability to burn fat at a relatively high level of intensity. This ability is critical to succeeding in these longer events and ‘teaching’ your body to do this takes years of practice, training and careful nutritional planning. One of the tips that you can use to help your own body to burn more fat at a higher rate of energy output is through riding at your upper endurance pace for two hours BEFORE you have anything to eat for the day. Get up early, have some water and get straight on your bike and no eating until 2 hours into the ride(unless you are in imminent danger of bonking) and then at 2 hours start consuming protein and complex carbs in order to keep your body going and burning that fat. This is an ‘old school’ trick that actually works, but it does take time to ‘teach’ your body to burn fat. Give it a try this winter and spring.
The next power file that caught my attention was George’s 2011 Paris-Roubaix file and this was particularly exciting since I had not gotten a file from Paris-Roubaix from one of the top contenders before. Paris-Roubaix is another incredibly epic race just a week after Flanders and George again cracked out a HUGE amount of work with 6175kiloJoules in this 6 hour 12 minute race, and averaged 323 watts normalized, which makes this his second hardest race for the year behind Flanders. One distinct difference is that in P-R, George was on the GAS for the entire race and examining Figure 2, shows that he spent very little time resting and relaxing in the peloton.
Paris-Roubaix has no equal in its demands and while most of us will never get a chance to race in P-R, we can learn a bit from George’s file. What strikes me as most interesting is that despite being on the gas from the start, George still was able to put over 370 watts after 4 hours of racing, which means that his muscular endurance is highly trained. Muscular endurance is something that all of us can use and means you have the ability to contract and relax your muscles at a relatively high force for a long period of time without fatiguing. Normally if muscular endurance is an issue, then you’ll get cramps in the race or event you are doing especially if the majority of the race has been harder than expected. How do you improve your muscular endurance? Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to this and you just have to commit to longer and harder rides than you have done in the past. Length will challenge your muscular endurance, but without intensity, it will not be specific enough to help you come race day, so make sure that in your longer rides this winter and spring, you add in plenty of sweet-spot, threshold and even big gear intervals into the mix so you can prepare for those hard events in 2012.
By Hunter Allen
Last fall, I enjoyed great riding and attend quite a few camps with many outstanding athletes and was able to spend some quality time coaching and riding which is always fun! I have more power data than I can analyze, and pretty often I’ll get some super exciting data that I haven’t seen before. This fall, it was George Hincapie’s SRM data from his stellar 2011 season and he had quite the stand-out year. Many of the tactics and strategies that he was able to employ successfully this year are things that each of us can use in our own racing or riding.
One of the camps that I coached at was the CEO Cycling Challenge event in Greenville, South Carolina which is the home to George Hincapie and Hincapie Sportswear. George has been a part of the CEO Cycling Challenge event for some time now and for the attendees it’s a great opportunity for them to spend some time riding with George, asking racing questions and enjoying the excellent cycling in Greenville. At the camp, Quarq power meters were kind enough to supply the CEO’s with demo power meters and we ran the CEO’s through our normal testing protocols of 5 second, 1 minute, 5 minute and 20 minute tests, in order to figure out their FTP and Power Profiles. This was a great way to introduce the CEO’s to power training and also provide some great comparisons to themselves and to “Big George’s” numbers. Everyone was feeling good about their numbers until George was kind enough to share all of his data with us and we all saw just how incredible a rider he continues to be. With the amazing data set at my fingertips, I immediately went straight to his Tour of Flanders file to see how difficult it was to place 6th in an event as hard as Flanders.
The demands of the Tour of Flanders are absolutely astounding and there is no doubt why this is considered one of the hardest one day races in the world. In the 160 mile race, George did 6123 kiloJoules of work which is one of the highest expenditure of kJ’s that I have ever seen. Since 1kJ is roughly equal to 1kCal, then George burned over 6100 calories during the race, which is more than any stage in the Tour de France this year. George’s normalized power for the 6hour race was 342 watts for the ENTIRE race…which most of us can only do for just a few minutes. He created 353 Training Stress Score points in the event which puts it solidly in the “EPIC” category. One of the more interesting things about the race was that George spent the first two and half hours resting, relaxing, sitting in the peloton and taking it as easy as possible and while this is somewhat expected, the clear delineation between this first easier part of the race and the final 3.5 hours is quite obvious. In figure 1, note how his power hovered down in the 200 watt range for most of those 2.5 hours and all of the sudden it was as if a switch was thrown in the peloton and the race started! This race ‘demand’ is characteristic of most pro tour classic races and is something that has to be trained in order for the rider to do well at the end of the event. How can you train to ride easy in the first 1/3 of the race and why would you want to even train for that you ask? Pro-tour riders and elite professionals have become incredibly efficient and economical with their internal body processes and external energy output. One of these is the ability to burn fat at a relatively high level of intensity. This ability is critical to succeeding in these longer events and ‘teaching’ your body to do this takes years of practice, training and careful nutritional planning. One of the tips that you can use to help your own body to burn more fat at a higher rate of energy output is through riding at your upper endurance pace for two hours BEFORE you have anything to eat for the day. Get up early, have some water and get straight on your bike and no eating until 2 hours into the ride(unless you are in imminent danger of bonking) and then at 2 hours start consuming protein and complex carbs in order to keep your body going and burning that fat. This is an ‘old school’ trick that actually works, but it does take time to ‘teach’ your body to burn fat. Give it a try this winter and spring.
The next power file that caught my attention was George’s 2011 Paris-Roubaix file and this was particularly exciting since I had not gotten a file from Paris-Roubaix from one of the top contenders before. Paris-Roubaix is another incredibly epic race just a week after Flanders and George again cracked out a HUGE amount of work with 6175kiloJoules in this 6 hour 12 minute race, and averaged 323 watts normalized, which makes this his second hardest race for the year behind Flanders. One distinct difference is that in P-R, George was on the GAS for the entire race and examining Figure 2, shows that he spent very little time resting and relaxing in the peloton.
Paris-Roubaix has no equal in its demands and while most of us will never get a chance to race in P-R, we can learn a bit from George’s file. What strikes me as most interesting is that despite being on the gas from the start, George still was able to put over 370 watts after 4 hours of racing, which means that his muscular endurance is highly trained. Muscular endurance is something that all of us can use and means you have the ability to contract and relax your muscles at a relatively high force for a long period of time without fatiguing. Normally if muscular endurance is an issue, then you’ll get cramps in the race or event you are doing especially if the majority of the race has been harder than expected. How do you improve your muscular endurance? Unfortunately, there is no easy answer to this and you just have to commit to longer and harder rides than you have done in the past. Length will challenge your muscular endurance, but without intensity, it will not be specific enough to help you come race day, so make sure that in your longer rides this winter and spring, you add in plenty of sweet-spot, threshold and even big gear intervals into the mix so you can prepare for those hard events in 2012.
a vostro giudizio un bikescore/TSS troppo elevato rispetto al combinato di volume/intensità di un uscita può essere letto come indice di FTP (per quello che vale ....ripeto ancora una volta che per me rappresenta sono un riferimento) sottostimata?
D
Deleted member 2182
Guest
Aspettiamo i luminari, ma se ho capito qualcosa del concetto di TSS direi di si.
Poi bisogna vedere quel "troppo" con che termine di paragone viene fuori.
Il TSS teorico su cui basi il confronto rispetto al sw (suppongo) come lo estrapoli?
- Stato